[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Zeberdi]

Bashing Kier Starmer for not declaring Israel is in breach of international law is a bit pointless imo because what will it achieve? - He is still an opposition leader of a Country that is more beholden to the US than it is to the people of Gaza. The UK will not likely ever maintain a different policy to the US on this issue and frankly, “declarations” of anything are just empty vessel protests anyway that have no real impact if it is not followed up by action - Israel has ignored UN declarations for decades, the ICC takes years to process war crime accusations by which time if genocide is the aim, it is too late to save the population concerned.

Rather than holding our collective noses and rummaging around in the internal dirty washing of the Labour Party, I think calling for Sunak and Biden especially to put more pressure on Netanyahu to come to a ceasefire agreement and put conditioning military aid on the table when doing so will be more helpful for the people of Gaza. However, Congress would not support that yet, the majority of Americans still support Israel‘s war, the military aid revenue to the US from channeling arms to Israel is massive and Biden faces a split electorate in a very tight race for reelection.

Changing public opinion so it becomes more costly than not for political leaders to ignore their voting electorate is probably the way change will come - legitimate protest and education on the wider Palestinian issues of freedom and independence is key to that but as I said above, one can come down off the fence without being anti-semitic, Islamophobic or an extremist:

Interesting interview with one of the students arrested in the US

Israel Hamas war: Arrested UCLA student denies protest was violent

Aidan Doyle, 21, was arrested on Thursday for being part of an encampment at UCLA.. He says he's shocked that the police arrested so many student protesters, but did not intervene in an attack on the protesters by a pro-Israeli group the day before.

news.sky.com

 

[armchairclubber]

Bashing Kier Starmer for not declaring Israel is in breach of international law is a bit pointless imo because what will it achieve? - He is still an opposition leader of a Country that is more beholden to the US than it is to the people of Gaza. The UK will not likely ever maintain a different policy to the US on this issue and frankly, “declarations” of anything are just empty vessel protests anyway that have no real impact if it is not followed up by action - Israel has ignored UN declarations for decades, the ICC takes years to process war crime accusations by which time if genocide is the aim, it is too late to save the population concerned.

Rather than holding our collective noses and rummaging around in the internal dirty washing of the Labour Party, I think calling for Sunak and Biden especially to put more pressure on Netanyahu to come to a ceasefire agreement and put conditioning military aid on the table when doing so will be more helpful for the people of Gaza. However, Congress would not support that yet, the majority of Americans still support Israel‘s war, the military aid revenue to the US from channeling arms to Israel is massive and Biden faces a split electorate in a very tight race for reelection.

Changing public opinion so it becomes more costly than not for political leaders to ignore their voting electorate is probably the way change will come - legitimate protest and education on the wider Palestinian issues of freedom and independence is key to that but as I said above, one can come down off the fence without being anti-semitic, Islamophobic or an extremist:

Interesting interview with one of the students arrested in the US

Israel Hamas war: Arrested UCLA student denies protest was violent

Aidan Doyle, 21, was arrested on Thursday for being part of an encampment at UCLA.. He says he's shocked that the police arrested so many student protesters, but did not intervene in an attack on the protesters by a pro-Israeli group the day before.

news.sky.com

I'm trying to understand your point in bold. How do you propose to do this, with some kind of "opposition" party?

I agree quite rightly that many people have been wanting that for months as well as other possible sanctions.

 

[Zeberdi]

I'm trying to understand your point in bold. How do you propose to do this, with some kind of "opposition" party?

I agree quite rightly that many people have been wanting that for months as well as other possible sanctions.

Just to be clear, I not planning or proposing anything

I am just saying, the electorate has more power now, this year when both the UK and the US are having GEs that protest can be effective in influencing voting behaviour - at the end of the day, all politicians in a liberal democracy rely on public support - lose that, they become powerless.

Voters are making their intentions felt in US and the UK (in bi-elections and wards that have a high Muslim demographic) and widespread media coverage of demonstrations may not always be unbiased or complimentary but at least it keeps the issues of Palestine on the front burner - while that happens, more people become aware of their suffering.

Labour has 'searching' to do after losing votes in areas with high Muslim population, Jess Phillips says

Analysis from Sky News shows that areas with a Muslim population below 5% saw the Labour Party's vote share increase by 1.1 percentage points. But areas with a Muslim population above 20% saw Sir Keir Starmer's party lose 17.9 points from their vote share.

news.sky.com

 

[armchairclubber]

Just to be clear, I not planning or proposing anything

I am just saying, the electorate has more power now, this year when both the UK and the US are having GEs that protest can be effective in influencing voting behaviour - at the end of the day, all politicians in a liberal democracy rely on public support - lose that, they become powerless.

OK, I may continue to "bash" Starmer then. More wanting him to be held to account on his position and hypocrisy I would say.

Voters are making their intentions felt in US and the UK (in bi-elections and wards that have a high Muslim demographic) and widespread media coverage of demonstrations may not always be unbiased or complimentary but at least it keeps the issues of Palestine on the front burner - while that happens, more people become aware of their suffering.

Whilst I'd agree media coverage is not always unbiased or complimentary, I'd neither say it were "widespread" of many huge demonstrations. As already discussed on this thread, this suits the agenda of both Tory and Labour Leadership and some influential media itself.

 

[aolstudios]

Aww, Jeremy's sad.

 

[Zeberdi]

OK, I may continue to "bash" Starmer then. More wanting him to be held to account on his position and hypocrisy I would say.

The UK Government doesn’t supply arms directly to Israel but does approve the licences for private companies to export weapons - therefore, neither Starmer nor Sunak are likely to admit that Israel is committing war crimes as that would self-criminate the UK in the eyes of the ICJ - it is illegal to export weapons to countries or states, where there is evidence it enables them to commit war crimes.

Same issue for Biden and the US.

 

[armchairclubber]

The UK Government doesn’t supply arms directly to Israel but does approve the licences for private companies to export weapons - therefore, neither Starmer nor Sunak are likely to admit that Israel is committing war crimes as that would self-criminate the UK in the eyes of the ICJ - it is illegal to export weapons to countries or states, where there is evidence it enables them to commit war crimes.

Same issue for Biden and the US.

This I agree entirely.

There also is evidence of a Genocide and other war crimes.

 

[Zeberdi]

This I agree entirely.

There also is evidence of a Genocide and other war crimes.

As I posted a few days ago - that’s not in dispute but your whole argument has been in trying to get Starmer to admit it and call him out for hypocrisy (as per the X tweet you posted above)

 

[armchairclubber]

As I posted a few days ago - that’s not in dispute but your whole argument has been in trying to get Starmer to admit it and call him out for hypocrisy (as per the X tweet you posted above)

....Well it is (or was) Starmer who's the Human Rights lawyer.

Anyways, I'll leave you to it I really don't think there's much chance of me getting Starmer to admit to anything

 

[borat]

....Well it is (or was) Starmer who's the Human Rights lawyer.

Anyways, I'll leave you to it I really don't think there's much chance of me getting Starmer to admit to anything

He will admit nothing. Starmer lies as liberally as Boris Johnson. His unwavering support of Israel in the last 7 months from a so called former "Human Rights Lawyer" has been nothing short of disgusting.

 

[knocky1]

May Day in Brighton.

 

[Zeberdi]

That’s a brilliant Guernica tapestry!