[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Audax]

Not a newspaper but an election leaflet where the words 'The Conservatives say' has been omitted. I could find dozens of similar misleading items and articles.

Had a Conservative leaflet for Mims Davies through the door a few days ago. Vast majority of it was green in colour. To be fair, it did clearly identify itself as being party political campaign leaflet for the Conservatives, but damn they were doing everything they could to not make it immediately obvious. If you're reduced to hiding your official brand colours etc on your leaflets, that should be telling you something - and it's not a positive something.

 

[BBassic]

I never really "got" Partridge - I was an edgy goth teenager when it was on telly. But that might have just convinced me to give it a go.

I'm certainly stealing "sordid little grief hole" for when I go round my mates flat.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I know you touch on it a couple of times in this post, but how do you find STV works in the senate elections in Australia?

In principle it seems to me to address most of my objections to both FPTP and a straight PR system (i.e. somewhat proportional, more votes influence the outcome, votes still made for individual candidates rather than a party as a whole), but I'd be interested in hearing if you have any particular objections to it in practice.

Edit: I'm aware that I bang on about STV a lot on here. I'm sort of relying on most people finding the topic so boring that they forget and/or don't notice.

I looked it up but I honestly can't remember how it works. Or the other variants.

Years ago I was one of a team of 5 that wrote a text book. It didn't sell all that well in America. We wanted to fix this so the publisher did some market research to find out how we might change the book to increase sales in America. Lots of US academics and students were consulted at great cost.

We acted on the recommendations. Sales did not improve.

The survey was run again. I got the publisher to add a question. "If we made all the changes you would like made, would you buy the book or recommend it to your students?" The answer was a resounding no. Why? Because the universities had been using another established text book for years, and had based their training and assessment around it. The effort of changing, even if the outcome were an improvement, was preclusive.

I would be interested to know what the electorate, all of it, would say if offered the option to vote (in a referendum, let's say) to change the electoral system to one that people discuss, such as STV. I'm sure that liberal supporters and greens would vote 'leave' (the old system). Let's see roughly how many votes that might be, based on the last general election (numbers in millions):

Mmmmmm..........unless the 23 million who voted tory and labour in 2019 could be persuaded to change the system (which would mean changing the system so the outcome suited them more), the roughly 5 million who voted elsewhere would be heavily outnumbered. As indeed they always are.

 

[Bodian]

The effort of changing, even if the outcome were an improvement, was preclusive.

Yet another word I've had to look up in one of your posts! Although, I was able to have a pretty good guess at what it meant - just never heard/seen it before.

I have a planning application / footpath issue I am dealing with at the moment, and this word will fit perfectly within my report!!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That's why we need PR

You do appreciate my point, I assume. How does one impose a change in the voting system?

My ex wife always used to bang on about 'they'. Why don't they do something about child poverty, famine in Africa, the climate, etc.

Thing is. There is no 'they'. Just we.

 

[BLOCK F]

No. Without their cheerleaders at GB News, the Mail and The Institute for policy studies (and their many sister organisations) things would be much, much worse for the Conservatives


You're right. It needs much more than a tweak. It needs to be funded in line with inflation. Not RPI or CPI but health inflation, which is running at about 7% due to our aging population / drug inflation etc. This funding needs to be backdated and in particular, NHS staff need a proper payrise which reflects what they did for us during the pandemic. Keeping them is a whole lot easier than recruiting and training replacements.

This can only be paid for by significantly higher taxation, primarily on the well off, but realistically in part on all of us. But it's worth it. Because the point you make is right, what is currently happening is not sustainable and we're hurtling towards an American model. This is way less efficient than what we have now. We would be paying a lot more in health insurance fees than we will in extra taxes go get our NHS back where it needs to be.

Leaving your comments re the NHS aside, because it is a vast topic on its own, I am not convinced that GB News, the Mail etc. have a huge influence on how people vote, but as Beorhthelm, I think it was said, they may reinforce the views those readers or listeners may already have. Rather like those who read the Guardian or the Mirror. Would you be influenced by GB News or the Mail?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I looked it up but I honestly can't remember how it works. Or the other variants.

Years ago I was one of a team of 5 that wrote a text book. It didn't sell all that well in America. We wanted to fix this so the publisher did some market research to find out how we might change the book to increase sales in America. Lots of US academics and students were consulted at great cost.

We acted on the recommendations. Sales did not improve.

The survey was run again. I got the publisher to add a question. "If we made all the changes you would like made, would you buy the book or recommend it to your students?" The answer was a resounding no. Why? Because the universities had been using another established text book for years, and had based their training and assessment around it. The effort of changing, even if the outcome were an improvement, was preclusive.

I would be interested to know what the electorate, all of it, would say if offered the option to vote (in a referendum, let's say) to change the electoral system to one that people discuss, such as STV. I'm sure that liberal supporters and greens would vote 'leave' (the old system). Let's see roughly how many votes that might be, based on the last general election (numbers in millions):

View attachment 176536

Mmmmmm..........unless the 23 million who voted tory and labour in 2019 could be persuaded to change the system (which would mean changing the system so the outcome suited them more), the roughly 5 million who voted elsewhere would be heavily outnumbered. As indeed they always are.

I was envisaging some sort of armed coup. It's amazing how persuasive the threat of summary execution can be.

Seriously though, just change it through Parliament like everything else. Hypothetically, at some point a party in government, probably Labour since they are as a party as a whole at least open to the idea of reform at the moment, comes out of an election needing support from the Lib Dems and/or Greens. Their price is some sort of electoral reform, they have some negotiation, it gets agreed.

Nobody was asked to vote when we got lumbered with FPTP in the first place, I don't see any reason why we need a vote to change it.

 

[ROSM]

Rishi was a countryside alliance supporter which is very close to a ....

You fill in the rest

 

[Machiavelli]

Leaving your comments re the NHS aside, because it is a vast topic on its own, I am not convinced that GB News, the Mail etc. have a huge influence on how people vote, but as Beorhthelm, I think it was said, they may reinforce the views those readers or listeners may already have. Rather like those who read the Guardian or the Mirror. Would you be influenced by GB News or the Mail?

I think this is a good question and, although you haven't said it, it points towards a snobbery/intellectualism of the left that is a little more prominent than on the right (ie, "it's only the right that are 'indoctrinated' by the Mail, whereas I'm a free-thinking Guardian reader"). That said, my point is that there's a heck of a lot more of the press advocating policies of the right -- which attracts c80% of the readership -- than on the left. You may respond that it's up to the left to create it's own media, and there's something in that too.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Leaving your comments re the NHS aside, because it is a vast topic on its own, I am not convinced that GB News, the Mail etc. have a huge influence on how people vote, but as Beorhthelm, I think it was said, they may reinforce the views those readers or listeners may already have. Rather like those who read the Guardian or the Mirror. Would you be influenced by GB News or the Mail?

We are all influenced by what we read aren't we? Maybe it's on NSC, maybe it's twitter, maybe a newspaper or channel. In a way we gravitate to media as a way of organising existing thoughts we have. I don't see anything wrong with that.

But where it can get pernicious is the drip drip drip. All day every day, the use of language, an incriminating photograph, a suggestive question to make a point. Over years and years, these forms of media are dragging people to the right, much more than I think would be a natural progression

My mates dad is a great example. Hippy in the 70s, supported miners in the 80s. Been watching GB News and reading Daily Mail recently . Me and my mate (both Lord of The Rings Nerds) describe it as trying to talk to Theoden, while under Saruman's spell (apologies to those who don't get the reference). Basically, his brain has been poisoned to the level where even basic communication on any social matters becomes hard.

 

[aolstudios]

I think this is a good question and, although you haven't said it, it points towards a snobbery/intellectualism of the left that is a little more prominent than on the right (ie, "it's only the right that are 'indoctrinated' by the Mail, whereas I'm a free-thinking Guardian reader"). That said, my point is that there's a heck of a lot more of the press advocating policies of the right -- which attracts c80% of the readership -- than on the left. You may respond that it's up to the left to create it's own media, and there's something in that too.

Agreed. As someone on the left it's depressing though that the plethora of left media on the web generally adds nothing but demonisation of Jews or anyone who's slighted the previous leader in the tiniest way. It's trump level #horseshoe

 

[clapham_gull]

Johnson is not a liberal, he speaks like he is, but he most certainly is not by his actions.

I think Johnson will say whatever he thinks will get himself elected.

Most biographies think he is liberal as heart, but as you say.....

 

[beorhthelm]

We are all influenced by what we read aren't we? Maybe it's on NSC, maybe it's twitter, maybe a newspaper or channel. In a way we gravitate to media as a way of organising existing thoughts we have. I don't see anything wrong with that.

But where it can get pernicious is the drip drip drip. All day every day, the use of language, an incriminating photograph, a suggestive question to make a point. Over years and years, these forms of media are dragging people to the right, much more than I think would be a natural progression

My mates dad is a great example. Hippy in the 70s, supported miners in the 80s. Been watching GB News and reading Daily Mail recently . Me and my mate (both Lord of The Rings Nerds) describe it as trying to talk to Theoden, while under Saruman's spell (apologies to those who don't get the reference). Basically, his brain has been poisoned to the level where even basic communication on any social matters becomes hard.

my contention is there might be influenced, most will pick up the media meeting their interests already. a left winger isnt buying or scrolling Daily Mail or watching GB News* and being convinced to change their views. they are read and watched by those already right leaning. same in reverse with Guardian and Mirror. only major difference is with main TV channel news where people might simply watch Sky evening bulletin because its on.

if mates' dad has recently been reading DM, i wonder what they were reading in the 80's a 70's?

* though i'm convinced most viewers are left wing supporters watching to scoff and get enraged by who is on there.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

my contention is there might be influenced, most will pick up the media meeting their interests already. a left winger isnt buying or scrolling Daily Mail or watching GBebbies* and being convinced the output is correct. they are read by someone already right leaning. same in reverse with Guardian and Mirror. only major difference is with main TV channel news where people might simply watch Sky because its on.

if mates' dad has recently been reading DM, i wonder what they were reading in the 80's a 70's?

* though i'm convinced most viewers are left wing supporters watching to scoff and get enraged by who is on there.

I think it's more insidious than "person reads newspaper editorial, decides to vote conservative"

It's about the framing of the national discourse. The way an article in one paper might say somebody "stated" something but another might use the word "claimed".

Having said that, I've always found the more time I've recently spent reading the Guardian the more inclined I am to right wing perspectives, just to spite the patronising twats who write for it.

The really creepy thing is when somebody who's previously seemed entirely normal spends a couple of weeks doing a deep dive on YouTube and comes out of it a boggle-eyed conspiracy loon.

 

[BLOCK F]

We are all influenced by what we read aren't we? Maybe it's on NSC, maybe it's twitter, maybe a newspaper or channel. In a way we gravitate to media as a way of organising existing thoughts we have. I don't see anything wrong with that.

But where it can get pernicious is the drip drip drip. All day every day, the use of language, an incriminating photograph, a suggestive question to make a point. Over years and years, these forms of media are dragging people to the right, much more than I think would be a natural progression

My mates dad is a great example. Hippy in the 70s, supported miners in the 80s. Been watching GB News and reading Daily Mail recently . Me and my mate (both Lord of The Rings Nerds) describe it as trying to talk to Theoden, while under Saruman's spell (apologies to those who don't get the reference). Basically, his brain has been poisoned to the level where even basic communication on any social matters becomes hard.

By dragging people to the right, do you mean bordering on the extreme right or just further away than perhaps you yourself are? Yes, you quote your dad’s mate, but are there really hordes of these types? Your dad and his mate may well be a similar age to myself,75, and as a natural centre right bod, I have no time for extremes of any shade. I think some of this drift to the right you see could be due to the fact that the Conservatives have been in power for too long and since 2019, in particular have been a f—-img shambles. Dissatisfaction has led to a splintered party and unsurprisingly a number of the electorate have expressed their ‘grievances’ by supporting some of the views held by splinter groups. I do believe this will be a temporary phenomenon, a bit like the Oh Jeremy Corbyn nonsense.
The way forward for any party wanting power has been not to veer too far from the centre, either left or right. That remains the case today.
Anyway, let us hope Keir Starmer makes a success of being PM and can keep the Labour Party more or less intact and reject any lunatic fringe that may emerge, given half a chance. In the meantime, in Opposition, the Conservatives will eventually come to their senses and regroup around the centre right.

 

[A1X]

 

[aolstudios]

After the media had insisted what a disastrous week it had been for labour & Starmer

 

[The Clamp]

There’s far too many long, sensible answers on here today.

Please cut it down to just the swear words and insults or face a lengthy ban.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Before I forget, congratulations to @Bozza and his mods for maintaining a forum where grown up, adult conversations can take place, which must be very challenging in 2024..

I am sure all of us appreciate the hard work from all of you, and that it doesn't happen by accident (and we don't help)

 

[The Clamp]

Michael Gove failed to register hospitality with donor whose firm he referred for PPE contracts

Exclusive: Gove enjoyed VIP hospitality at football match with owner of company awarded £164m of contracts after Gove’s referral

www.theguardian.com

More corruption from the cocaine addled Pob. Absolutely dripping in lies, deception, contempt, cronyism, entitlement, and idleness.

Ditch. Now.