[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[British Bulldog]

Well, bully for you, Bulldog - I fear it, as do most sensible folk who don't share your rather fatalistic view, and every conceivable path should be explored to avoid it, whether such weapons exist or not.
Poking the bear continuously is not a prudent way forward, imo, if one wishes to avoid all out war.

Realistic rather than fatalistic, Putin knows he can take the p*ss and do what he wants and all the west will do is sit back and give weapons to Ukraine. The Russians are raping, pillaging and bombing Ukraine into non existance knowing full well the west won't fire a single bullet.

 

[birthofanorange]

Realistic rather than fatalistic, Putin knows he can take the p*ss and do what he wants and all the west will do is sit back and give weapons to Ukraine. The Russians are raping, pillaging and bombing Ukraine into non existance knowing full well the west won't fire a single bullet.

It's a long game, sadly, and if firing the 'single bullet' (as you put it) escalates the situation to a nuclear level, what exactly has been achieved? No one is saying he can just take the piss - his country is pretty much estranged, his economy is (or will be) in ruins for decades to come - he's not exactly getting off lightly, is he?
No one 'wins', if this goes nuclear - no one.

 

[British Bulldog]

It's a long game, sadly, and if firing the 'single bullet' (as you put it) escalates the situation to a nuclear level, what exactly has been achieved? No one is saying he can just take the piss - his country is pretty much estranged, his economy is (or will be) in ruins for decades to come - he's not exactly getting off lightly, is he?
No one 'wins', if this goes nuclear - no one.

We all know what happens if things go Nuclear and nobody wants that, but that threat from Russia is allowing them to bomb thousands of innocent civilians as and when he wants too while the weak western leaders sit back letting him get on with it. Has nothing been learned from WW2?

 

[The Clamp]

It's a long game, sadly, and if firing the 'single bullet' (as you put it) escalates the situation to a nuclear level, what exactly has been achieved? No one is saying he can just take the piss - his country is pretty much estranged, his economy is (or will be) in ruins for decades to come - he's not exactly getting off lightly, is he?
No one 'wins', if this goes nuclear - no one.

I agree somewhat and agree with much of what you say. But Putin cannot be allowed to win. And at some point that is likely going to mean the West becomes more aggressive.

I think right now, it all depends on what happens after Ukraine. The “bullet” won’t be fired while the war is contained in the Ukraine.


In my inexpert opinion.

 

[birthofanorange]

Has nothing been learned from WW2?

Yes, that WW3 will be the end, so has to be avoided.

 

[British Bulldog]

Yes, that WW3 will be the end, so has to be avoided.

So just sit back, do nothing and hope that sanctions work in the long run?

 

[A1X]

So just sit back, do nothing and hope that sanctions work in the long run?

Given the choice is that or nuclear Armageddon, yes. At least in a direct military capacity.

But we should be pumping Ukraine full of as much arms as we can muster.

 

[birthofanorange]

So just sit back, do nothing and hope that sanctions work in the long run?

If you think the West is just 'sitting back and doing nothing', I fear you're very much mistaken.

 

[beorhthelm]

So just sit back, do nothing and hope that sanctions work in the long run?

sanctions havent worked elsewhere and the Russians are a stoic bunch, so its a forlorn hope.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Given the choice is that or nuclear Armageddon, yes. At least in a direct military capacity.

But we should be pumping Ukraine full of as much arms as we can muster.

So that the Ukrainians fight our battles for us and pay with Armageddon for themselves ? Doesn’t sound the most moral of arguments.

 

[The Clamp]

I think people who think the West are too scared to engage, are mistaken. But we have to weigh up the potential consequences.

I believe as long as we mass NATO troops on the Russian borders, Putin will keep in line as far as aggression against NATO goes.

Once Putin has finished destroying Ukraine, that’s the key moment.

If he tries to encroach on NATO territory, NATO have to answer with such a crushing demonstration of force and firepower that Russia won’t wake up for millennia. We would need to hammer them back through themselves.

If we blink in that instant, Europe is lost.

As I say, if we get those troops in place on the borders, I don’t think Putin would dare. Show him strength or face the dire consequences.

 

[Eric the meek]

sanctions havent worked elsewhere and the Russians are a stoic bunch, so its a forlorn hope.

How do you know they haven't worked so far?

Kyiv hasn't fallen in four months of trying by Putin. Russia is weaker than when it began the war. The war in the Donbas has ground to a halt. Russia has been reduced to a rogue, pariah state.

Russia has defaulted on its debt repayments. The Russian economy has been severely compromised, probably for a generation.

Russian expansion has been contained. Every day that the war continues, Russia is drained a little more of resources.

I think the sanctions are working very, very well.

 

[birthofanorange]

NATO have to answer with such a crushing demonstration of force and firepower that Russia won’t wake up for millennia.

If it gets that far, they won't be waking up at all - ever. Of course, neither will we.

 

[rigton70]

IMO if the news reports are true and he is dying he probably thinks sod it if I'm dying i will take the world with me.

 

[The Clamp]

If it gets that far, they won't be waking up at all - ever. Of course, neither will we.

That’s not foregone. I can imagine a lot of ballistic back and forth before possible use of nuclear weapons.

I also reckon there’ll be a lot of stand offs and manoeuvres lasting weeks, possibly months. Unlikely to be a direct scramble for the big red button as soon as NATO fronts up to Putin.

 

[GT49er]

Well, bully for you, Bulldog - I fear it, as do most sensible folk who don't share your rather fatalistic view, and every conceivable path should be explored to avoid it, whether such weapons exist or not.
Poking the bear continuously is not a prudent way forward, imo, if one wishes to avoid all out war.

The bear wasn't being poked, apart from its own delusions of persecution.

Of course, we could easily save this unpleasantness - "Dear Mr. Putin, we completely understand that you had to have Ukraine. Which independent sovereign state would you like next?"

 

[birthofanorange]

The bear wasn't being poked, apart from its own delusions of persecution.

Of course, we could easily save this unpleasantness - "Dear Mr. Putin, we completely understand that you had to have Ukraine. Which independent sovereign state would you like next?"

No, it wasn't being poked, but it currently is (and again, rightly so), and Putin is feeling it, too. The question is, how hard do you poke, knowing the potential outcome for all?
As I said earlier, it's a long game and yes, horrendous for Ukraine, but poking too far/hard too soon will do nobody any favours.

 

[GT49er]

So that the Ukrainians fight our battles for us and pay with Armageddon for themselves ? Doesn’t sound the most moral of arguments.

It's not - but we haven't really got a viable alternative at this stage. Any suggestions?

 

[birthofanorange]

That’s not foregone. I can imagine a lot of ballistic back and forth before possible use of nuclear weapons.

I also reckon there’ll be a lot of stand offs and manoeuvres lasting weeks, possibly months. Unlikely to be a direct scramble for the big red button as soon as NATO fronts up to Putin.

You could be right, but equally you could be wrong. I feel that direct NATO involvement is an absolute last resort. Things already haven't gone Putin's way, and the longer this goes on, the harder it is for Russia.

 

[The Clamp]

You could be right, but equally you could be wrong. I feel that direct NATO involvement is an absolute last resort. Things already haven't gone Putin's way, and the longer this goes on, the harder it is for Russia.

My personal view is that we will have to just keep arming Ukraine, hope they win.
Keep massing those NATO troops and I don’t think even Putin would be daft enough to engage NATO.

And if he does? Well let’s go and sit on Rampion wind farm with a bottle of rum and watch it all burn!