[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Billy the Fish]

However - For you to suggest my objection to posts of Hamas’s atrocities being used to justify the deaths of thousand of innocent children is tantamount to me being biased in favour of Hamas is ridiculous.

Why on earth do people insist on creating straw arguments from what people are saying. Surely we all agree that the deaths of any innocent people caught up in the conflict is tragic, regardless of whether they are Palestinian or Israeli?

Are you projecting much!

This whole thread is full of you shutting down any opinion that deviates from your own. That's very much your style of posting, and it's entirely by design. You have a habit of presenting opinion as fact and using biased sources to justify it.

Nobody is saying anything to justify killing anyone. I don't think you support Hamas. I do think your commentary on this subject is incredibly one sided, I'd have more respect if you just admitted it.

It's possible to try and understand cause and effect without getting into a debate of right and wrong. News flash: bombing the shit out of a county is wrong. Going on a mass killing and raping spree is wrong.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Israelis will live there and it will thrive.
No one will take the displaced.
Job done.

Sorry, but what does that even mean?

 

[aolstudios]

Keep calling it numpty, maybe you think if you throw enough crap that some will stick? Maybe will, maybe won’t. But guess what, I actually do not care. I am comfortable with my position, I feel no need to justify it, I know my opinions, you can only presume or guess. So please, go ahead, carry on. All the time you throw shit at me, you are not throwing it at someone who is not as at ease with themself as I am. Also, you just highlight your own narrow minded narrative, exposing yourself and those who think like you as the hypocrites that you are. Please, go ahead, entertain me.

I refer you to my previous post.
Touched a nerve?..

 

[wellquickwoody]

I refer you to my previous post.
Touched a nerve?..

You can do better than that surely? C’mon………

 

[The Fits]

Is it so hard for people not to confuse Hamas with the people of Palestine and IDF/Israel’s government with the people of Israel? Innocent lives on both sides have been lost by two clearly horrific and barbaric regimes. The side to choose here isn’t between those two sets of innocent people it IS the innocent people.

 

[Zeberdi]

It's possible to try and understand cause and effect without getting into a debate of right and wrong. News flash: bombing the shit out of a county is wrong. Going on a mass killing and raping spree is wrong.

This latest tiff started out with a sarcastic response to me quoting the UN Chief Communications Officer reporting on the desperate plight of children in Gaza saying it was biased.

As for your comment in bold - what do you think I have been saying that is in contradiction to that?

I have posted information from a cross section of sources as you well know

Including various UN organisations
BBC
Sky News
The Guardian
The Times of Israel
Jewish academia with perspectives from Jewish writers
Al Jazeera
and one source in the entire thread from the Hamas Health Authority that I quoted in turn from in the BBC news piece and which I put in inverted commas to show it was what Hamas were saying not fact per se.

You making ad hominem attacks on me or trolling me or this thread won’t make any difference to the FACT thousands of women and children are being killed in Gaza who are not terrorists nor do they support Hamas. If people think that is ok then by all means present an argument to say why it is justified- dont just attack me for posting that it is not.

It won’t make any difference to the FACT Hamas are a brutal jihadist group that terrorises their own people into obedience or that the attacks on Israelis in October were inhuman.

It is not biased to say that there are Religious Zionists that want to wipe the OTP off the map (as they have openly testified in policy documents and interviews) and create a Greater Israel and Hamas who apparently want to do the same to Israel.

I’m not shutting anyone down but facts are facts - If you dispute the facts I post then post alternative ones no one is stopping you.

 

[The Hermit Kingdom]

What has posting on this thread personally achieved for the various regular participants?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I give up - this is what I have been saying ad nauseam from the outset of this thread - I agree there are ‘two sides to the political issue of what a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian question is (or what is desirable) there always has been - it is very complex and we covered those complexities at the beginning of the thread. In recent days however, the narrative has moved on and wider MSN news reporting has focused on the plight of Palestinians in Gaza and calls for Isreal to exercise more restraint/protect civilians (so obviously news updated of what is happening will get posted ) - that is not ’biased’ and not ‘opinion’ it is fact.

I just don’t understand how posts that literally report what is happening from reliable news sources is ‘shutting down debate’? Surely - If people don’t want to talk about what is happening in Gaza at this time (because that is the war that this thread is about) then why not just ignore the thread?



A slightly odd question - what does anyone get from posted regularly on any of the long running threads on NSC?
Personally, I think there is a lot of value in unpacking some of the elements that have led to years of conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people as well as calling out extremism or racism where it exists. Dialogue and debate even in this Country on social media etc can help foster understanding of what the ‘other’ wants - without that, what chance for peace?

How come every single time I open this thread, you've posted yet another thousand words? You do it so often it's just become word salad now. Word with yourself?

 

[Zeberdi]

Back to the thread topic and in relation to BBC report posted above regarding eye witness attacks on 7/10

Netanyhau calls for the international community to condemn the attack on 7/10

Netanyahu says human rights groups are turning a blind eye to alleged rapes by Hamas

Israel's government is accusing the international community, particularly the United Nations, of ignoring the pain of Israeli victims.

news.sky.com

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

What has posting on this thread personally achieved for the various regular participants?

Self gratification and the need to get one's point across in the hope everyone either agrees with them or surrenders.

Very much like the whole situation out there, as in there is no winner and it is pointless.

 

[Zeberdi]

Self gratification and the need to get one's point across in the hope everyone either agrees with them or surrenders.

Very much like the whole situation out there, as in there is no winner and it is pointless.

Believe me there is no ‘self-gratification’ in being subject to repeated personal attacks and digs at my integrity (or race) just for taking the humanitarian POV on the suffering of others and wanting to highlight their plight. There is no winner, no one is trying to win a political argument (least of all me) but I don’t believe it it right to brush under the carpet (or ignore) the many 1,000s of innocent people that are getting caught in the middle through no fault of their own. That is the point.

As reflected here

Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory - Global Centre for the Responsibility to Protect

Since 7 October 2023 Israeli forces have perpetrated likely war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza and the Occupied West Bank. Palestinians face mounting risks of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have also perpetrated likely atrocity crimes.

www.globalr2p.org

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Believe me there is no ‘self-gratification’ in being subject to repeated personal attacks and digs at my integrity (or race) just for taking the humanitarian POV on the suffering of others and wanting to highlight their plight. There is no winner, no one is trying to win a political argument (least of all me) but I don’t believe it it right to brush under the carpet (or ignore) the many 1,000s of innocent people that are getting caught in the middle through no fault of their own. That is the point.

Fair enough, but I do not see the same amount of zeal you portray in this thread as in the Ukraine issue, which is now on page four of the big board.
I see in your posts someone who is passionate, on this issue, I will give you that. I possibly think you do lean to one side, but that is natural.

As reflected here

Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory - Global Centre for the Responsibility to Protect

Since 7 October 2023 Israeli forces have perpetrated likely war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza and the Occupied West Bank. Palestinians face mounting risks of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have also perpetrated likely atrocity crimes.

www.globalr2p.org

I am not reading that, sorry, pointless both sides are going to do what they do, both sides take no notice of the UN or for that matter what the USA says. Israel will stop when it wants, Hamas will attack when it wants, folks are living in dream world if they think this will be resolved in our life time.
There will always be the next generation of Israelis and Palestinians who have lost loved ones and will perpetuate the scenario sadly.

all the data and opinions are sweet, but pointless.

There is feck all you or I can do.

 

[Zeberdi]

Fair enough, but I do not see the same amount of zeal you portray in this thread as in the Ukraine issue, which is now on page four of the big board.
I see in your posts someone who is passionate, on this issue, I will give you that. I possibly think you do lean to one side, but that is natural.


I am not reading that, sorry, pointless both sides are going to do what they do, both sides take no notice of the UN or for that matter what the USA says. Israel will stop when it wants, Hamas will attack when it wants, folks are living in dream world if they think this will be resolved in our life time.
There will always be the next generation of Israelis and Palestinians who have lost loved ones and will perpetuate the scenario sadly.

all the data and opinions are sweet, but pointless.

There is feck all you or I can do.

All fair points but just to clarify the ’side‘ I lean on (which actually isn’t a ‘side’, it is a neutral position politically) is highlighting human rights abuses and crimes against humanity on both sides - not because I am Jewish, as you keep trying to suggest but because of my sense of humanity. That report you refuse to read, documents international war crimes and human rights abuses (as reported by the UN and HR NGOs) by both the IDF and Hamas.

We are not impotent - we have voices. OK it is a personal opinion but I do actually believe it is right to speak out against human rights abuses and crimes against humanity. That is something we can all do - or at least refrain from trying to bully people into silence when others speak out against injustice and crimes against humanity.

Btw - I haven’t got involved in the Ukraine thread because there are enough NSCers speaking out on behalf of victims of illegal occupation (ie Crimea) and aggression on that thread - and it is largely uncontentious - few people would agree with Putin’s treatment of Ukrainians. It doesn’t mean to say I am not equally appalled by the treatment of Ukrainian citizens by Russians and the devastating impact the war is having on Ukraine- (my Grandmother was born in Ukraine btw) Once refugees started coming out of Ukraine in the early days, I emailed groups and various people in my local community to mobilise support and encourage support for our local Ukrainian population here including helping to organise aid packages.

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

All fair points but just to clarify the ’side‘ I lean on (which actually isn’t a ‘side’, it is a neutral position politically) is highlighting human rights abuses and crimes against humanity on both sides - not because I am Jewish, as you keep trying to suggest but because of my sense of humanity.

of course.

That report you refuse to read, documents international war crimes and human rights abuses (as reported by the UN and HR NGOs) by both the IDF and Hamas.

And what good has it done ?

We are not impotent - we have voices. OK it is a personal opinion but I do actually believe it is right to speak out against human rights abuses and crimes against humanity. That is something we can all do - or at least refrain from trying to bully people into silence when others speak out against injustice and crimes against humanity.

If you think I am trying to bully you, I apologise that is not my intention, I just see the arguments or opinions on here as mainly pointless for reasons I have stated, they will fall on deaf ears on both sides sadly.

Btw - I haven’t got involved in the Ukraine thread because there are enough NSCers speaking out on behalf of victims of illegal occupation (ie Crimea) and aggression on that thread - and it is largely uncontentious - few people would agree with Putin’s treatment of Ukrainians. It doesn’t mean to say I am not equally appalled by the treatment of Ukrainian citizens by Russians and the devastating impact the war is having on Ukraine- (my Grandmother was born in Ukraine btw)

Your grandmother being born in the Ukraine should have no relevance on right or wrong, my ex's grandfather (Polish) was tortured by Ukrainians during the war, I know she is passionate and has raised money for the Ukrainian people.

Once refugees started coming out of Ukraine in the early days, I emailed groups and various people in my local community to mobilise support and encourage support for our local Ukrainian population here including helping to organise aid packages.

Well done you, I mean that.
You come across as a really nice fella, and I enjoy your posts on other subjects.
This is a subject you are passionate about, we will leave it at that for me and you, and move on.

 

[The Fits]

I give up - this is what I have been saying ad nauseam from the outset of this thread - I agree there are ‘two sides to the political issue of what a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian question is (or what is desirable) there always has been - it is very complex and we covered those complexities at the beginning of the thread. In recent days however, the narrative has moved on and wider MSN news reporting has focused on the plight of Palestinians in Gaza and calls for Isreal to exercise more restraint/protect civilians (so obviously news updated of what is happening will get posted ) - that is not ’biased’ and not ‘opinion’ it is fact.

I just don’t understand how posts that literally report what is happening from reliable news sources is ‘shutting down debate’? Surely - If people don’t want to talk about what is happening in Gaza at this time (because that is the war that this thread is about) then why not just ignore the thread?



A slightly odd question - what does anyone get from posted regularly on any of the long running threads on NSC?
Personally, I think there is a lot of value in unpacking some of the elements that have led to years of conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people as well as calling out extremism or racism where it exists. Dialogue and debate even in this Country on social media etc can help foster understanding of what the ‘other’ wants - without that, what chance for peace?

I wasn’t referring to you or anyone on this thread. As I’ve said before, your input here is invaluable.
I’m talking about the general broader discussion and the prevalence, especially from the MSM, to encourage the taking of sides of two sets of innocent bystanders.

 

[TheJasperCo]

This is not NEW news. This is horrific, it is inexcusable, it is barbaric. It is true.

It is also propaganda.

This was known, and reported on, on October 7th and the following days. There has been a campaign by Israeli social media influencers to bring this story back to the top of the news headlines for the last few days. It is a smoke screen to disguise their genocide and human rights abuses in their reignited military campaign in southern Gaza. What happened to the initial victims on around the 7/10 has cannot be erased, nor is if a valid reason to kill TENS OF THOUSANDS of Palestinians (of which a large part are innocent children).

I am getting more angry with one side in this conflict everyday. Both sides are to blame, but one far more so than the other. One side really should know better, but they choose to use influence, power, subtefuge and downright lies to elicit support from the West. That same side is beginning to make anti-semitism seem less objectionable than it should be.

Doesn't the sentence in bold contradict your third sentence?

 

[A1X]

 

[Zeberdi]

Debate on vote for ceasefire going on now in UN Security Council in response to Security General’s invocation of Article 99

U.N. Security Council Meets to Discuss Resolution Calling for Ceasefire in Gaza

www.c-span.org

 

[POSKETT AT THE VALLEY]

Shame on Israel and the USA.

 

[Flagship]

Yes. Couldn't agree more.

The whole episode is disgusting.

The Americans could stop it at the drop of a hat by threatening to stop supplying weapons to Israel.

Lots been said elsewhere, but yes, as far as I can see its genocide.