[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Zeberdi]

Don’t get me wrong, I find the actions of the Israeli Defence Force monstrous and the Israeli government is a far right group of twats led by a massive, bloodthirsty ****. But when you have Hamas saying “we’re going to just do it again and again” is it any wonder the Israelis aren’t exactly keen to stop?

Yes, I agree - but conversely (and this isn’t whataboutery!) when you have a government committed to annexing more and more land into Israel, and in the past 10 years at least, having made repeated declarations to a Greater Israel, and when that is apparently evidenced by a tidal wave of settlements and Peace Plans that agree to further annexation of Palestinian territory … well it’s an impasse isn’t it?

That’s why I think we do need to be involved though - the stability of the ME depends on Israel and Hamas coming to a ceasefire as soon as possible. If people really are more concerned about themselves and their own lives in the UK, which I can understand completely then maybe have a think what the impact an escalation of this war, or the destruction of Gaza (made inhabitable) will have on global oil prices - one of the biggest hardships for the British people in the past 3 years has been the price of domestic fuel - largely due to the war in Ukraine - those conditions (sanctions and embargoes) still exist and will be made far worse if the Gazan war becomes a regional conflict. That in turn would push up food prices too, at a time when Ukraine’s grain exports are seriously diminished. Can the West risk such a double threat on the global oil markets?

Oil prices could hit $150 if Israel-Hamas conflict intensifies, World Bank warns

Multilateral lender says commodity markets still reeling from Russia’s war in Ukraine

www.ft.com

 

[A1X]

The call for a ceasefire has nothing to do with with lefties wanting to feel good about themselves. It's about preventing the loss of more innocent lives.

So if tonight’s vote had passed, the war would have stopped by now, right?

 

[sparkie]

More seriously, any hopes for a ceasefire were ended when Hamas came out and said they would just keep doing attacks on the scale of October 7th until such time as Israel was destroyed. What is the point in demanding a ceasefire when at best one side would adhere to it?

"You cease we fire" ?

 

[Zeberdi]

If somebody suggests embargoes or sanctions on Israel linked to their actions in Gaza I'd agree with them.

I tried that several times up thread - problem is us the UK Government, they have already fended off that chanel of protest - we wouldn’t do it unilaterally - it would have to come from the UN -

UK anti-boycott bill is attack on freedom of expression, say civil society groups

Boycotts, divestment and sanctions bill, designed to stop public bodies boycotting Israel, will be tabled soon

www.theguardian.com

Resigning over a vote to call for a ceasefire without any prospect of serious engagement to solve the underlying issues is an emotional spasm.

But in that case why not have a free vote for heavens sake - Starmer made it more of an ‘emotional spasm’ by making it a 3 line whip - Starmer was his own worst enemy today - in trying to make himself look strong, he made himself look weak.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I tried that several times up thread - problem is us the UK Government, they have already fended off that chanel of protest - we wouldn’t do it unilaterally - it would have to come from the UN -

UK anti-boycott bill is attack on freedom of expression, say civil society groups

Boycotts, divestment and sanctions bill, designed to stop public bodies boycotting Israel, will be tabled soon

www.theguardian.com

Zeberdi, you're lovely, but you'll have to realise that a) nothing we suggest on NSC makes any difference, and b) nobody can be expected to read every post you or anybody else write.
Suffice to say, I agree that the bill in question is wrong.

But in that case why not have a free vote for heavens sake - Starmer made it more of an ‘emotional spasm’ by making it a 3 line whip - Starmer was his own worst enemy today.

I'm not aiming to come across as condoning this, but all that would lead to would be headlines to the effect of "half of Labour front bench vote to support ceasefire benefiting Hamas". Which wouldn't help anybody.

 

[Hamilton]

People aren’t calling for ‘restraint’ that ship has long sailed. They are calling for a ceasefire and for Israel to stop the widespread slaughter of innocent civilians.

Labour ‘getting into government’ and ‘calling for a ceasefire’ does not have to be mutually exclusive.

I think it is dangerous to presuppose what other people think.

Hamas have attacked the only democracy in the Middle East. This is, in the eyes of the Israeli government, a war. If Hamas want to avoid further suffering then they should surrender. Where are the calls from Labour MPs for Hamas to surrender? Where were the Labour MPs demanding a backing for the Kurds who have been fighting Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey? Where were the Labour MPs demanding the the Ughger Muslims be protected from genocide? Instead they publicly fall on their swords for a similar issue because it’s getting press attention.

If Hamas want to end the suffering - or rather, if Iran wants to end the suffering - then that ‘army’ should surrender.

As to getting elected, that should be the number one priority for Labour MPs.

We have crumbling education infrastructure; we have a health service that has fallen behind; we have crap national infrastructure; we have a housing crisis and skills shortages; we have a government that is eroding our rights every day. That’s their priority.

Unfortunately, the idea that a Labour leader will win by standing out from the crowd is wrong. Corbyn proved it. It may appeal to the Glastonbury crowd, but they don’t vote. Jonathan Harmsworth’s Daily Hate will love this. Just what they want - “a disunited Hamas loving rabble” they will claim.

Get elected!

 

[Hamilton]

But we will continue to do business with Israel that facilitates the mass killing of civilians.

In your posts you make lots of strong points, so thank you. Adds to the debate in my mind.

As to this point above I’d pose the question, why would we not do business with Israel? We do business with Saudi Arabia, Qatar etc and they are not democratically elected governments. And it’s not Israel as a whole that is far right. They are more conservative because they have an enemy at their borders all committed to their destruction.

While I despise Netanyahu and his cronies, I’m concerned that people are seeing the Israeli people as the bad guys in this. That’s too much polar thinking in my book.

The vast majority of Israelis are Jewish and they have been thrown together in a UN approved state because every country in the world has committed antisemitic acts for centuries past. They now have a homeland and just as we in Europe were once committed to their destruction, now their neighbours in the Middle East are. In true ‘Rwanda style’ we’ve exported the problem.

I hear what you are saying about concerns for civilians. I agree that as Hamas will not surrender that the Israeli government has to find a way to protect the innocent. But also remember that the people of Gaza voted for Hamas and from the start they were clear about what they wanted - to destroy Israel.

I wrote to my MP on 15 October to say that I believed our government should say that it did not support the enforced movement of 1 million people and that the Israeli government’s actions risked being disproportionate. But there is an argument that this is a war. It’s what Hamas have been calling for. I still believe there is another way, but I refuse to take sides in all this.

 

[Zeberdi]

I think it is dangerous to presuppose what other people think.

It is not preposing what other people think to say ‘we have moved on from restraint’ and those people against what Israel are doing in Gaza are calling for a ceasefire or at least a complete and temporary cessation of fighting to get the wounded out of Gaza/aid in. That is fact. I haven’t heard anyone calls for ‘restraint’ in our Parliament - ‘restraint’ what was required before Israel killed 4,000 children.

Hamas have attacked the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is not a ‘democracy’ - for a significant percentage of it’s population is illiberal and the whole Country is under Netanyhahu’s brand of Religious Zionism, the governance of Israel has more in common with the authoritative regime of Russia than a Western democratic society and is fast becoming a Theocracy - only 74% of it’s citizens have full civil rights and it imposes a system of apartheid polices on the others - imprisons people without due process (including children) and meets protests with deadly force - Netanyahu has been rolling back individual freedoms and centralising government control for years. Israel is a Country that keeps a whole nation under brutal Occupying military control - there is nothing democratic about that. As an Occupying force, Israel affords very few rights to Palestinians in the OPT and those in Israel are treated as second class citizens.

This is, in the eyes of the Israeli government, a war.

And a war in the eye of Hamas - I am not defending Hamas but it is inaccurate to say only Israel see this as a ‘war’

Hamas want to avoid further suffering then they should surrender.

It’s not Hamas that want to ‘avoid further suffering’ (well I cant speak for them’) but it is the World that looks on, including every aid and medical NGO and UN body (apart from apparently the US and UK Governments) - Hamas doesn’t care about the innocent civilians of Gaza - they have been killing them for years, stealing essential aid from them and making weapons out of water irrigation infrastructure - Hamas have no more interest in stopping the violence right now than Israel - that does not mean we should let 2 million Palestinians (the majority of which are women and children) starve or die from the continued bombardment of Gaza by Israel. How is that even a sensible way of getting back the hostages.

Where are the calls from Labour MPs for Hamas to surrender? Where were the Labour MPs demanding a backing for the Kurds who have been fighting Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey?

The Kurds!? What have Turkey and Syria got to do with this thread? - ‘whataboutery’ is what people use to avoid the issue - we are talking about the killing of civilians in Palestine

Where were the Labour MPs demanding the the Ughger Muslims be protected from genocide? Instead they publicly fall on their swords for a similar issue because it’s getting press attention.

Again, we are talking about Palestine

If Hamas want to end the suffering - or rather, if Iran wants to end the suffering - then that ‘army’ should surrender.

see my answer above

As to getting elected, that should be the number one priority for Labour MPs.

Again, this thread is about the Gaza war, not about the Labour Party getting elected into Government

We have crumbling education infrastructure; we have a health service that has fallen behind; we have crap national infrastructure; we have a housing crisis and skills shortages; we have a government that is eroding our rights every day. That’s their priority.

So the UK can’t agree to a resolution at the Security Council to agree to a ceasefire in Israel because the waiting list for hospital care in this Country is too long etc !?

Again - ‘whataboutery’ and suggesting that we should not have an ethical foreign policy as well as caring for our own citizens is ridiculous - we can do both.

Unfortunately, the idea that a Labour leader will win by standing out from the crowd is wrong. Corbyn proved it. It may appeal to the Glastonbury crowd, but they don’t vote. Jonathan Harmsworth’s Daily Hate will love this. Just what they want - “a disunited Hamas loving rabble” they will claim.

Get elected!

Sorry but please stick to the issue - this thread is about the Hamas - Israel war - if you want to use NSC for a platform to argue the merits of the Labour Party over Conservative Party or the chances Labour has of winning the next election, can we please do it on the appropriate threads?

This thread has been rapidly derailed by those with a completely different agenda to discussing what is even happening in Gaza - by their own admission, they don’t care or think we should not have anything to do with it.

In your posts you make lots of strong points, so thank you. Adds to the debate in my mind.

I think throughout this thread, @Bakero and I (and the majority of others) have been making much the same points and however many veiled (and not so veiled) ad hominem attacks that are made on me that does not change - the points being, not in order of preference that:

a/ Israel has a right to defend herself
b/ Israel’s response is overwhelming disproportionate
c/ Isreal is likely to be in violation of a number of international humanitarian laws and the Geneva Convention (and has a history of human rights abuses towards Palestinians )
d/ The attack on Israel by Hamas was absolutely heinous and despicable - there is absolutely no justification ever for that kind of atrocity
e/ The humanitarian crisis in Gaza is heartbreaking as are the numbers of innocent children who are dying at the hands of the IDF
f/ There needs to be an immediate ceasefire or at least a truce to negotiate the release of the hostages and get proper aid and healthcare into Gaza

 

[Zeberdi]

. But also remember that the people of Gaza voted for Hamas and from the start they were clear about what they wanted - to destroy Israel.

Who voted for Hamas?

1. 50% of the population have never voted
2. The last ‘vote’ for Hamas was in 2006 as a political party on the Legislative Council to the Palestinian Authority* set up by the Oslo Accords - Hamas won 44.5 % the votes compared to Fatah’s 41.4% because they were seen as the best party to provide social care and deal with corruption (which was rife in Fatah) - so became the ruling majority in the Palestinian parliament governing over the whole of the OPT - that was what Gazans voted for. Hamas only took over ruling Gaza in 2007 and did so, not by election but by a bloody takeover of their political rivals, walked away from the PA because Hamas didn’t support a 2 state solution, and have since tortured or killed any Palestinian civilians who have collaborated with the Israeli security forces or stood up to Hamas. Hamas keep control over it’s citizens by paramilitary force. The political wing of Hamas is the only party the majority of Gazans have ever known and the only source of social care.
3. The ‘people of Gaza’ have not had a voice about what they want since 2006 and most never have.

* The Palestinian Authority agreed to renounce violence, recognise the right of the State of Israel to exist and support a process that would lead to a 2 state solution - this is what 44% of Palestinians thought they were voting for in 2006 - including anti-corruption and better social care.

People need to stop saying that Hamas has the support of the Palestinian people because of an election over a decade ago to the PA - this is NOT a basis upon which to accuse the entire people of Palestine of supporting terrorism

 

[Zeberdi]

still believe there is another way, but I refuse to take sides in all this.

That makes two of us - there are extremists on both sides and the only moral position IMO is to speak out for the innocent civilians in Gaza who are dying as a result of the conflict between two extremist ideologies.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

that makes sense, and ties in with moronic boycotts of Israel that seem to follow.

(only high profile products, they dont boycott Israeli sourced technology which often used unknowingly.)

How do you boycott something you unknowingly use ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

What did Ukraine do to provoke Russia to invade?

Wbat did the children in Gaza do to provoke such an Israeli response ?

 

[borat]

That makes two of us - there are extremists on both sides and the only moral position IMO is to speak out for the innocent civilians in Gaza who are dying as a result of the conflict between two extremist ideologies.

And to call for the end of decades of brutal Israeli Apartheid and occupation

 

[A1X]

Wbat did the children in Gaza do to provoke such an Israeli response ?

I wasn’t aware the stated aim of the IDF was “we will wipe out all the children in Gaza”, I’d have thought that would be bigger news TBH

 

[borat]

I wasn’t aware the stated aim of the IDF was “we will wipe out all the children in Gaza”, I’d have thought that would be bigger news TBH

You havent been paying attention to the murderous rhetoric coming out of Israel including Netanyahu.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-rhetoric.html

They have managed to kill close to 5000 children so far - so they seem to be content with it happening regardless of intention.

 

[beorhthelm]

How do you boycott something you unknowingly use ?

a bit of research, find out what goods and services are from the target of your objection, boycott them uniformly. groups will boycott McDonalds on tenous link they have outlets there, while overlooking all the chip technology they use from Intel's Israeli labs.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

a bit of research, find out what goods and services are from the target of your objection, boycott them uniformly. groups will boycott McDonalds on tenous link they have outlets there, while overlooking all the chip technology they use from Intel's Israeli labs.

Not as easy as you make out. For example, the security system on Samsung phones - Knox - you try finding who wrote it. It shows as Samsung but it was actually an Israeli software security company that designed it. No mention online about that and equally how many people know every component of their devices to be able to search for who produced it ? I boycott goods in supermarkets that show the origin as Israel but I don't have a hope in hell of boycotting EVERY Israeli produced service or goods.

 

[Hamilton]

That makes two of us - there are extremists on both sides and the only moral position IMO is to speak out for the innocent civilians in Gaza who are dying as a result of the conflict between two extremist ideologies.

But that description is, by definition, erring towards a side. As the UN Sec Gen said, we can’t see this instant in a vacuum.

 

[Zeberdi]

a bit of research, find out what goods and services are from the target of your objection, boycott them uniformly. groups will boycott McDonalds on tenous link they have outlets there, while overlooking all the chip technology they use from Intel's Israeli labs.

Not that easy and tbh most of the boycotted goods from what I can see are those produced in the OPT by people living under Occupation rather than goods from Israel but need to do more research on that.

As you say - It really isn’t easy to disentangle multi-nationals from those that fund them either-
If for example we wanted to boycott Qatar for supporting and harbouring the Hamas leadership, how do you propose we do that? Boycotting a football tournament (PSG for example) is only the tip of a very big iceberg of Arab global investments - Qatar has an over £40 billion investment portfolio in the UK including in Sainsbury, Barclays, Heathrow Airport
and British Airways - they own real estate and hotels/luxury mansions throughout the UK including in London, The Ritz, Claridges etc -

How Qatar bought up Britain

As the world’s attention turns to the emirate for the World Cup, an Observer investigation reveals that it and its ruling family have amassed a £10bn property empire

www.theguardian.com

Technology in Israel relies almost entirely on foreign investment-

A Global Comparison

innovationisrael.org.il

It is not easy boycotting goods/imports in the global economy and finding a way to get foreign investors to pull out their investments is an uphill challenge and invariably a voluntary exercise for the Companies involved as Ukraine vis a vis Russian global investments/multinationals has shown - that’s the way to go though - sanctions and withdrawal of global investment-boycotting Israeli potatoes at the local supermarket will achieve very little in the bigger scheme of things.

 

[Boys 9d]

If the people of Gaza are guilty of voting for Hamas, are the people of Israel guilty of voting for their present government?