[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Kalimantan Gull]

Sadly, Biden is funding the Hamas campaign via Iran, negotiating a hostage for 6 billion dollar exchange while at the same they’re plotting mass murder and hostage replacement.

Biden Is Making the World Dangerous Again

townhall.com

I fully expect an attack on USA soil forthcoming.

I don't think Iran were skimping on their support for Hamas regardless of that money, the $100 million or so they provide annually would be at the top of their budget priorities.

My word, I just had a look at that link you shared, I've been aware of the bias in US right wing 'news' sites but I never realised it got as ridiculously one-eyed as that. Quite a scary thought if large swathes of the American population are only getting their news from places like that.

 

[Zeberdi]

Palestine and the Middle-East is a separate subject for me. I look at Israel politically. In the same way as opposing the political actions of parliament doesn't make me a self hating Brit.

I think what you are trying to say is that the political reality of the State of Israel is distinct from the religious and ethnic ideological zionistic concepts of ‘Israel’’ being a ‘homeland’ (or ‘Holy Lands)’ or even ‘Israel’ as in the Jewish ‘people’ - yes, it is - most secular Jews at least, would agree with that too I think and as @Guinness Boy pointed out earlier, the population of Israel is neither all Jewish nor homogenous - and therefore, which I guess was your point, just because both aspects are true for Jews, Arabs (and millions of Christians worldwide) , it does not constitute racism/anti-semitism to hold her manner of Government, legislature and political system to account the same way one would any other Country - the recent demonstrations against Netanyahu’s plans to strip the judiciary of its power demonstrates that.

Liberal Zionism, a strong trend in modern Israeli politics, embraces principles of civil freedoms and democracy (which by nature allows protest and accountability ) and includes recognising the need for Palestinian statehood as a route to greater security in Israel although more recently under Netanyahu‘s political leadership, deals with the far right Religious Zionists and his revisionist policies is almost diametrically opposed to the democratic principles of Liberal Zionism and is leading Israel towards a form of Theocracy and Orthodox law.)

Criticism of Israel is only anti-semitic if it is done out of Israelphobia/xenophobic sentiment because it’s a Jewish State.

It is not anti-semitic to hold Israel responsible for violations of the rights of the Palestinian people - which is political and a civil liberty issue or to call out the extremist elements of Netanyahu’s government. Arguing the cause of the Palestine people and even not formally recognising Israel, a position still held by the majority of Arab governments despite efforts to normalise relationships with Israel, is not anti-semitic in it’s nature but a political view born of a belief that the price of recognising Israel has to be the creation of a Palestine state.

We must not fall into the trap of being silenced on the injustices meted out on the Palestinian people in the OPT through fear of being accused of being anti-semitic by those whose interests are served by such silence.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I think what you are trying to say is that the political reality of the State of Israel is distinct from the religious and ethnic ideological zionistic concepts of ‘Israel’’ being a ‘homeland’ (or ‘Holy Lands)’ or even ‘Israel’ as in the Jewish ‘people’ - yes, it is - most secular Jews at least, would agree with that too I think and as @Guinness Boy pointed out earlier, the population of Israel is neither all Jewish nor homogenous - and therefore, which I guess was your point, just because both aspects are true for Jews, Arabs (and millions of Christians worldwide) , it does not constitute racism/anti-semitism to hold her manner of Government, legislature and political system to account the same way one would any other Country - the recent demonstrations against Netanyahu’s plans to strip the judiciary of its power demonstrates that.

Liberal Zionism, a strong trend in modern Israeli politics, embraces principles of civil freedoms and democracy (which by nature allows protest and accountability ) and includes recognising the need for Palestinian statehood as a route to greater security in Israel although more recently under Netanyahu‘s political leadership, deals with the far right Religious Zionists and his revisionist policies is almost diametrically opposed to the democratic principles of Liberal Zionism and is leading Israel towards a form of Theocracy and Orthodox law.)

Judaism is the Jewish religion.
Zionism is the belief in a safe(ish) homeland for Jews (regardless of practicing or not).
The overwhelming majority of Jews worldwide are Zionists

My understanding of Zionism when talked about in a geographical context, is that its not just the belief in a safe homeland for Jews, but the expansion of Israel to cover the whole of their 'ancestral homeland' (according to the bible) i.e. much of the Levant.

This comes into focus when looking at that American so-called 'news' site linked to above, with opinion pieces titled Gaza Belongs to Israel, Take Back Gaza And Never Give It Back, and Finish Them, Israel.

The first of them is particularly telling ...

"Israel’s claim to most of the Levant region is practically as old as civilization itself. A nation could have no higher mandate, no more impeccable claim to any geographical location. The Palestinians are interlopers in a land whose title was bequeathed by God Himself."

 

[JamieR]

Israel Gaza war: History of the conflict explained

Tensions between Israel and the Palestinians date back decades, but what are the key issues?

www.bbc.co.uk

A very high level summary of the reasons behind it. Both sides don't come out of it very well and you have to ask why the international community isn't/hasn't made more of an issue of occupied territory. What's going on now has prompted me to do some wider reading on the subject (bowen and fisk books) as I don't know much about it.

 

[nicko31]

Sadly, Biden is funding the Hamas campaign via Iran, negotiating a hostage for 6 billion dollar exchange while at the same they’re plotting mass murder and hostage replacement.

Biden Is Making the World Dangerous Again

townhall.com

I fully expect an attack on USA soil forthcoming.

Blimey I'm starting to understand more about how the American right get groomed, thanks for sharing.

Thankfully in the UK, we have a media landscape here where key broadcasters try to explain both sides of this tragic conflict

 

[abc]

Personally, I cant see anything offensive in your post but I’m slightly bemused as to why you think you might be ‘alone’ in calling out racism or ignorance or offensive behaviour -

A feature of emotive and/or political threads is the habit of some posters to resort to abuse if someone simply disagrees with their POV. I think its one reason why so many post only very occasionally or just ‘view’ but never post.
Acknowledging that my post effectively criticised some posters, I guess I was trying to head off potential abuse. Silly maybe but thats why.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Guinness Boy]

Sadly, Biden is funding the Hamas campaign via Iran, negotiating a hostage for 6 billion dollar exchange while at the same they’re plotting mass murder and hostage replacement.

Biden Is Making the World Dangerous Again

townhall.com

I fully expect an attack on USA soil forthcoming.

Good God, this is utter conspiracy theory nonsense. Struggling with the post truth world I see.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Absolutely

I’m not sure there’s any there’s such a thing as an ‘ordinary’ Jew tbh!

- not only is the spectrum of religious ideology quite wide but the Jewish people are culturally, politically and ethnically very diverse - it’s also worth bearing in mind that not all Jews are both ethnic and religious (ie subscribe to/practice Judaism) but are only Jews by virtue of ethnicity - also, Jews attend Synagogues as places of learning and social gatherings too without being ‘religious’ - in Hove for example, from time to time I attended the Brighton and Hove Progressive Synagogue (with a lovely female Rabbi) but also Brighton and Hove Reform Synagogue and Hove Hebrew Congregation Synagogue - and while not practicing Judaism, as an ethnic Jew, felt at home in all of them as I strongly identify with being Jewish. The point being, people do not always understand that ‘Jewish’ does not refer to a religion but an ethnicity- many Jewish people practice Judaism but not all.

That being said, my Grandparents on my Father’s side were Congregational, in the States, my Jewish relatives do adhere to Judaism and we have our share of bar mitzvahs in the family so have a diverse range of ideology and belief to draw experience from. It’s important to recognise how centuries of persecution has formed the mind set of many Jews - especially (ex) European Jews with a familial connection to the Holocaust experience. In Israel, the population of Jews covers the full very diverse range of Jewish people, cultural, religiously and ethnicity - they will all share one thing though, (on a spectrum of significance to them personally), that as a race, being Jewish has a strong persecution narrative that is passed down from generation to generation...concomitant to that is Zionism and the belief that the State of Israel is a refuge from anti-semitism. Anti-semitism is rife globally but it is not always noticed in our nice, middleclass, semi-urban areas - the Synagogues in Hove were constantly daubed with anti-semitic graffiti and having its windows broken - there were always guards on the doors which remained closed at all times.

The attitude to the Arabs/Palestine varies in intensity even in ‘liberal’ Jews in the UK but I can tell you from direct experience that the level of hate (and fear) towards the Arab people even in Western Europe can be very entrenched in some groups. I recall an afternoon with acquaintances from the Hove Congregational Synagogue and the discussion around adherence to Zionism and hatred of Arabs from the small group of people I was having tea with in someone’s Hove apartment frankly scared me - I was very uncomfortable in that dynamic.

Conversely, the Torah teaches a strong moral code of charity and obligation to help the poor as well as social and legal justice - like all the Monotheistic scriptures in fact, but like most subscribers to any of the 3 main Monotheistic religions, often falling far short of its teachings!

I think it’s important to give a bit of insight into why the Israeli-Palestinian question seems so intractable and why the Israeli-Hamas War could set any hopes for a lasting peace back decades - hatred, fear and suspicion runs deep but so does love and charity so there is always hope.

edit - worth mentioning my own personal fondness for our Chairman, Tony Bloom too - he’s the kind of Jew I genuinely aspire to as was my Father - genuine acts of great charity, loyalty and faith (and as my Dad used to say, you don’t have to be religious to have faith)

Yes, apologies Zeb, clumsy wording. Really meaning anyone not on the political extreme either way

 

[sparkie]

Sadly, Biden is funding the Hamas campaign via Iran, negotiating a hostage for 6 billion dollar exchange while at the same they’re plotting mass murder and hostage replacement.

Biden Is Making the World Dangerous Again

townhall.com

I fully expect an attack on USA soil forthcoming.

Something about this sounds a bit off.

I can't quite put my finger on it but my instinct is that Biden isn't funding the Hamas campaign.

 

[Bakero]

Blimey I'm starting to understand more about how the American right get groomed, thanks for sharing.

Thankfully in the UK, we have a media landscape here where key broadcasters try to explain both sides of this tragic conflict

You say that, and it's true to some extent, but last night I had a look at the Mail and the Telegraph. I knew what to expect but I was still shocked by some of their coverage.

The Guardian and the BBC, for example, do try to give more detail but still tend to frame things in a particular way. Eg. 1000 Israelis "killed" whereas 1000 Palestinians "have died". The Guardian had a story last week in which they reported protestors in Gaza "received bullet wounds" to the ankles. So they were shot in the ankles then.

As someone said earlier on this thread, the words we choose matter.

 

[Zeberdi]

My understanding of Zionism when talked about in a geographical context, is that its not just the belief in a safe homeland for Jews, but the expansion of Israel to cover the whole of their 'ancestral homeland' (according to the bible) i.e. much of the Levant.

That’s actually not strictly true and very much open to debate - assessment of the current Israel-Hamas War deserves a much more nuanced response or interpretation of ‘Zionism’ and recognition of it’s multiple strands of thinking;

- there are many forms of contemporary zionistic ideology and definitely different leanings in political, religious and cultural zionist ideology but the main overall objectives of the Zionist movement was purportedly to bring an end the Diaspora and the creation of a sovereign State for the Jewish people, objectives which many would argue were achieved in 1948 at least until 1967. . “In 1942, at the Biltmore Conference, David Ben-Gurion reiterated that the goal of Zionism was to build a state recognized by the international community, which would take its place among other nations”
https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_CITE_047_0041--zionism-between-ideal-and-reality.htm Since 1967 and the 6 Day War, Israel has largely withdrawn military occupation of Gaza, the West Bank and Golan Heights under subsequent peace accords and international pressure. The main issues for Israel’s claims to the rest of Palestine now largely revolve around her sense of physical and political security and in particular in the Golan Heights, access to the Sea of Galilee, Israel’s main source of fresh water.

You may find this interesting and relevant

https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_CITE_047_0041--zionism-between-ideal-and-reality.htm

” It is a fundamental question: will Zionism be considered as definitively “achieved” only when Israel is in charge of all the occupied territories? First of all, we can argue that the “revisionist” current itself soon abandoned the idea of a state that would extend beyond the eastern bank of the Jordan River into contemporary Jordan. Then, the total evacuation of Gaza in 2005 erased any future chance to reclaim this territory. Finally, even Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu – the contemporary supporter of the Jabotinskian movement of “the Whole Land” – accepted the principle of the two States in Israel in his “Bar-Ilan Speech,” even if their borders, for now, remain ambiguous.”

The Theory of Zionism - Different Models

archive.jewishagency.org

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Probably safe in my conclusion that Beram Kayal won’t be signing up for the counter-offensive (punishment).

 

[Zeberdi]

Probably safe in my conclusion that Beram Kayal won’t be signing up for the counter-offensive (punishment).

Good to see footballers speaking out in support of Palestinians

Top footballers unite in solidarity with Palestinians

As Israeli raids continue, sporting stars from the UK to Chile raise the Palestinian flag and post messages of support.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Machiavelli]

Could someone explain the difference between Judaism and Zionism, or how the fit with one another. I feel my understanding on this is limited and I possibly have some misconceptions.

Zionism is basically about establishing a homeland, which Jews were denied up until 1948. Judaism is the name of those that practice the religion.
There is an interesting contrast introduced by Ted Honderich between Zionism and NeoZionism, whereby Zionism constitutes the movement that establishes the state of Israel, whereas NeoZionism is what has come afterwards and is about the continued expansion of the Israeli state and incursion into Palestinian territories.

 

[Machiavelli]

Absolutely

I’m not sure there’s any there’s such a thing as an ‘ordinary’ Jew tbh!

- not only is the spectrum of religious ideology quite wide but the Jewish people are culturally, politically and ethnically very diverse - it’s also worth bearing in mind that not all Jews are both ethnic and religious (ie subscribe to/practice Judaism) but are only Jews by virtue of ethnicity - also, Jews attend Synagogues as places of learning and social gatherings too without being ‘religious’ - in Hove for example, from time to time I attended the Brighton and Hove Progressive Synagogue (with a lovely female Rabbi) but also Brighton and Hove Reform Synagogue and Hove Hebrew Congregation Synagogue - and while not practicing Judaism, as an ethnic Jew, felt at home in all of them as I strongly identify with being Jewish. The point being, people do not always understand that ‘Jewish’ does not refer to a religion but an ethnicity- many Jewish people practice Judaism but not all.

That being said, my Grandparents on my Father’s side were Congregational, in the States, my Jewish relatives do adhere to Judaism and we have our share of bar mitzvahs in the family so have a diverse range of ideology and belief to draw experience from. It’s important to recognise how centuries of persecution has formed the mind set of many Jews - especially (ex) European Jews with a familial connection to the Holocaust experience. In Israel, the population of Jews covers the full very diverse range of Jewish people, cultural, religiously and ethnicity - they will all share one thing though, (on a spectrum of significance to them personally), that as a race, being Jewish has a strong persecution narrative that is passed down from generation to generation...concomitant to that is Zionism and the belief that the State of Israel is a refuge from anti-semitism. Anti-semitism is rife globally but it is not always noticed in our nice, middleclass, semi-urban areas - the Synagogues in Hove were constantly daubed with anti-semitic graffiti and having its windows broken - there were always guards on the doors which remained closed at all times.

The attitude to the Arabs/Palestine varies in intensity even in ‘liberal’ Jews in the UK but I can tell you from direct experience that the level of hate (and fear) towards the Arab people even in Western Europe can be very entrenched in some groups. I recall an afternoon with acquaintances from the Hove Congregational Synagogue and the discussion around adherence to Zionism and hatred of Arabs from the small group of people I was having tea with in someone’s Hove apartment frankly scared me - I was very uncomfortable in that dynamic.

Conversely, the Torah teaches a strong moral code of charity and obligation to help the poor as well as social and legal justice - like all the Monotheistic scriptures in fact, but like most subscribers to any of the 3 main Monotheistic religions, often falling far short of its teachings!

I think it’s important to give a bit of insight into why the Israeli-Palestinian question seems so intractable and why the Israeli-Hamas War could set any hopes for a lasting peace back decades - hatred, fear and suspicion runs deep but so does love and charity so there is always hope.

edit - worth mentioning my own personal fondness for our Chairman, Tony Bloom too - he’s the kind of Jew I genuinely aspire to as was my Father - genuine acts of great charity, loyalty and faith (and as my Dad used to say, you don’t have to be religious to have faith)

Thanks again. This post is worth replying to in the hope that anyone that didn't read it when it was posted takes up the opportunity to do so.

 

[Questions]

May I ask why?

Well it’s more Revisionalist Zionism and any expansion talk within it. Maybe Neo Zionism is more accurate.

 

[Questions]

Violet Elizabeth Bott

Dennis Waterman played Just William on tv.

 

[Questions]

I see the Yanks have now arrived and starting supplying weapons, Hamas even deeper in shit now.

Hamas would totally have anticipated what happens next. They want it to escalate. They are Jihadists.

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Hamas would totally have anticipated what happens next. They want it to escalate. They are Jihadists.

Ones man Jihadists is another mans freedom fighters.

 

[Questions]

Ones man Jihadists are another mans freedom fighters.

I agree. I remember Nelson Mandela saying as such in his autobiography….. BUT he accepted there would be innocent deaths once his military wing grew. There is a difference here though if using that as an example.
I can understand how soldiers and police as an occupying force are legitimate targets though.