[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[beorhthelm]

29 pages on, do we have a solution yet ?



Thought not.....

There never will be either, especially when you have two antiquated religions & ideologies at loggerheads about who is right, who was first, who is the most persecuted, who the land belongs too, religion pah.

actually a few have suggested some solution. the obvious one is a UN led two state solution and policing of the boarder. each side should recognise the others state and their security mutually assured. but yeah, they'd rather wrap themselves up in religious dogma, and deliberatly not accept a solution for the people involved.

 

[BadFish]

I’m NOT segregating anyone. The point I made which has been made countless times by people that are experts ( historians etc ) in on this subject and are not right wing is that some of the laws in some Muslim countries are incompatible with the laws in Europe , Israel and the USA .

There maybe some Christians and Jewish people who don’t agree with Gay rights or freedom of speech etc but in the countries they populate , this is the law so they would be breaking the law and suffer the consequences if they for example attacked a gay person or said hateful things .

In many Muslim countries it is not against the law to attack Gay people because they don’t have rights and if you want to shout death to Christians or Jews the police will not do any thing.

So the big difference is if you are used to living in a country that tolerates and in some countries actively encourages hatred of other religions and Gay people etc how is that going to play out when some of these people leave their countries and live in Europe.

To say everyone is equally to blame on these issues is clearly not true because in Christian countries and Israel we have different ( I would say better laws )

But you weren't talking about Muslims in those countires where homosexuality is illegal. You were asking Bakero about the Muslims that he lives near . . . in Almería . . . in Spain.

 

[nicko31]

Why?

Well, there is the argument that they are not 'people like us', this kind of othering language is a red flag.
Your assumption that all Muslims will be anti-gay rights and anti free speech - My experience says that Christians are just as likely to be anti-gay. Bible claptrap
Your blind support of Netanyahu and habit of looking the other way to the wrongs done by his far-right government.
The whole 'side' and 'supporting' thing, treating an incredibly complex situation like a football team is . . . well less abhorrent and more . . . illogical and stupid, but still quite dangerous.

Anyway as I say, you do you I don't like your views on this subject but we can still share space. I hope you feel the same about Muslims? . . . because that's not how it comes across.

His posts over the years are as tribal as mine are against Palace, classic footballification.

He likes to pick a side, usually one that plays it on the right wing. The gay rights thing is a useful trogan horse

 

[BadFish]

Except I DID NOT say all , I said a minority . Try reading what I wrote .

Not how your posts have been reading to me.

this is the post I quoted, If i missed you saying 'minority' (I still can't see it) then the main thrust of your post seems to be suggesting that because they are Muslim they will be anti-gay.

Out of interest have you asked any of your neighbours what they think about people that are gay ? What they think about people that might mock Mohammed ? Be interesting to hear there answers .

Doing the same things as you might do on a regular basis Is not necessarily an indication of whether they are as you put it ‘ People like us ‘

What peoples views on Gay people , free speech , etc is a truer indicator of ‘ People like us ‘. Ie people that share common liberal tolerant values.

Anyway, you asked me why I found your views on Muslims abhorrent and I told you, if you don't like how you are coming across (can't blame you for that) then maybe change what you post.

 

[Justice]

I’m talking about basic human rights - gay rights , freedom of speech - do you not care about that !

Lots of people have different views about various subjects. I’m highlighting huge differences of opinion that are not considered acceptable in a liberal democracy.

Freedom of speech and gay rights . Are you happy that some people don’t agree with that , are these the people you want to support so vocally.

You asked a poster to question his Muslim neighbours on subjects that you know very well know aren’t seen in a positive light within their religion knowing it will stir tension. You know exactly what you are doing.

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

actually a few have suggested some solution. the obvious one is a UN led two state solution and policing of the boarder. each side should recognise the others state and their security mutually assured. but yeah, they'd rather wrap themselves up in religious dogma, and deliberatly not accept a solution for the people involved.

Yeah, like both sides would agree to that, and who will foot the bill ?

 

[Live by the sea]

Why?

Well, there is the argument that they are not 'people like us', this kind of othering language is a red flag.
Your assumption that all Muslims will be anti-gay rights and anti free speech - My experience says that Christians are just as likely to be anti-gay. Bible claptrap
Your blind support of Netanyahu and habit of looking the other way to the wrongs done by his far-right government.
The whole 'side' and 'supporting' thing, treating an incredibly complex situation like a football team is . . . well less abhorrent and more . . . illogical and stupid, but still quite dangerous.

Anyway as I say, you do you I don't like your views on this subject but we can still share space. I hope you feel the same about Muslims? . . . because that's not how it comes across.

I don’t support the current Israeli PM , I believe he makes matters worse not better. I have never said I support him.

I would like there to be peace probably even more so than some people on NSC as I have several Jewish friends here and in NY.

I also have about a dozen Muslim friends , one whose late father was a Saudi diplomat .

All my Muslim friends are well educated and about half of them originate from other Middle East countries . All of them believe in the same liberal democratic values that we all do .

Some of them in the past have spoken about their embarrassment about some of the laws in their countries and they are all very happy to be living in either NY or here in England .

My friends all share similar values and morals even if they don’t always agree with the best step forward to help solve the Israel / Palestinian crisis.

I respect them all because of this. I don’t respect the type of people that would arbitrarily attack women and children and teenagers at a music festival whatever their reason.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

"Not the easiest to negotiate with".
Have you watched the last few days' slaughter?..

I was being facetious.

 

[Justice]

I don’t support the current Israeli PM , I believe he makes matters worse not better. I have never said I support him.

I would like there to be peace probably even more so than some people on NSC as I have several Jewish friends here and in NY.

I also have about a dozen Muslim friends , one whose late father was a Saudi diplomat .

All my Muslim friends are well educated and about half of them originate from other Middle East countries . All of them believe in the same liberal democratic values that we all do .

Some of them in the past have spoken about their embarrassment about some of the laws in their countries and they are all very happy to be living in either NY or here in England .

My friends all share similar values and morals even if they don’t always agree with the best step forward to help solve the Israel / Palestinian crisis.

I respect them all because of this. I don’t respect the type of people that would arbitrarily attack women and children and teenagers at a music festival whatever their reason.

This smacks of I’m not racist as one of my mates is black.

 

[BadFish]

I don’t support the current Israeli PM , I believe he makes matters worse not better. I have never said I support him.

I would like there to be peace probably even more so than some people on NSC as I have several Jewish friends here and in NY.

I also have about a dozen Muslim friends , one whose late father was a Saudi diplomat .

All my Muslim friends are well educated and about half of them originate from other Middle East countries . All of them believe in the same liberal democratic values that we all do .

Some of them in the past have spoken about their embarrassment about some of the laws in their countries and they are all very happy to be living in either NY or here in England .

My friends all share similar values and morals even if they don’t always agree with the best step forward to help solve the Israel / Palestinian crisis.

I respect them all because of this. I don’t respect the type of people that would arbitrarily attack women and children and teenagers at a music festival whatever their reason.

I don't know what to tell you mate, this is not what is coming across on here.

Like I say, you can change that.

 

[Live by the sea]

You asked a poster to question his Muslim neighbours on subjects that you know very well know aren’t seen in a positive light within their religion knowing it will stir tension. You know exactly what you are doing.

I wanted to highlight that unless people have shared common values concerning decency like gay rights and freedom of speech etc how can they be people like us . The phrase that was used by the original poster .

I would like to reiterate for about the 5th time , I said a minority I did not suggest everyone Muslim has these views

 

[Live by the sea]

This smacks of I’m not racist as one of my mates is black.

Only if you a complete idiot

 

[Guinness Boy]

*sigh*

So far the spats during and since last night have led to two posters perma banned, one for the vilest post I've ever had the misfortune to read on NSC. Three others have now been given time off this thread specifically as @Bozza warned those who indulged in personal insults would.

If you can't debate this like an adult you are risking your NSC membership. It really is as simple as that.

 

[Gabbiano]

Edit: not worth the effort

 

[Wardy's twin]

People will look at states like Saudi and Iran when it comes to this conflict, but it's really very simple: if Israel pull out of the occupied west bank territory and cede East Jerusalem to a new Palestinian state, this conflict would be over within 5 minutes.

Most sane people can see a) Hamas are a horrible self-serving organisation, b) the right-wing Israeli state have indulged in state-sponsored law-breaking for decades and c) those in charge of Iran (and Saudi) are generally currently forces for the worse, but this conflict simply goes away with a sane, reasonable land agreement that includes East Jerusalem. No

Nope.. Iran and Hamas want Israel removed completely and probably the Jews with it. Israel's actions regard settling and removing Palestinians is part of the problem but it's not the root cause. I am not sure if people actually understand how big(small) Israel was pre 1966 when they captured large areas. At its narrowest it was 12 miles across. From the Golan heights you could hit with artillery any of Israel's urban areas(yes modern rockets have changed things). From the Golan you drive 30 odd miles and you are in tel aviv. Having the Golan heights stops Syrian tanks coming through easily (there is a natural defence line there which Israel used in 1973). Sinai which was also captured during 1966 was returned when Egypt made peace. Jordan would have liked the west bank back but not the Palestinians who have previously brought instability to that country.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Anti Israel you mean.

Difficult to separate the two as religion/race is pretty crucial to the existence of that state.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Nope.. Iran and Hamas want Israel removed completely and probably the Jews with it. Israel's actions regard settling and removing Palestinians is part of the problem but it's not the root cause. I am not sure if people actually understand how big(small) Israel was pre 1966 when they captured large areas. At its narrowest it was 12 miles across. From the Golan heights you could hit with artillery any of Israel's urban areas(yes modern rockets have changed things). From the Golan you drive 30 odd miles and you are in tel aviv. Having the Golan heights stops Syrian tanks coming through easily (there is a natural defence line there which Israel used in 1973). Sinai which was also captured during 1966 was returned when Egypt made peace. Jordan would have liked the west bank back but not the Palestinians who have previously brought instability to that country.

This is a good article by Jeremy Bowen about the Six Day war.

1967 war: Six days that changed the Middle East

The human drama behind the 1967 Middle East War

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[giveusfalmerplease]

many people might forget or not know that there was a very similar situation to this between India and Pakistan in the 60s. It took involvement from the British, Aussies and others to bring about peace, lead to redrawing of borders and many Pakinstani people had to move out of their homes . The fighting could easily have continued but these peoples chose to abide by the peace making decision and now, whilst not exactly living in harmony , do put past differences aside. I worked for a company which employed both Pakinstani and Indian employees who happily worked together, putting the past and religious differences aside. It can happen and hopefully one day it will in Israel.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Difficult to separate the two as religion/race is pretty crucial to the existence of that state.

I fully appreciate that, my point being that to criticise the Israeli government should not lead to a the simple conclusion of being antisemitic. Most people are happy with this others wish give a blanket response. That doesn’t help anyone.

 

[rippleman]

I fully appreciate that, my point being that to criticise the Israeli government should not lead to a the simple conclusion of being antisemitic. Most people are happy with this others wish give a blanket response. That doesn’t help anyone.

Thank you. I'm glad someone else gets it.

Now if only you could get Sir Starmer to understand that.